I got my new Kiesel guitar today and found something I'm not happy with...

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Re: I got my new Kiesel guitar today and found something I'm not happy with...

Postby X1Glider » Sun Sep 29, 2019 1:46 am

AxRookie wrote:
ElfDude wrote:Okay, I'm intrigued. Tell me about your experience with the Mag-Lok, please?
It's nice because you can do string bends and the other strings stay in tune because the mag-lok holds the tremolo in place but when you push on the tremolo arm it releases the tremolo to move in either direction and when you let go it "loks" back up, It's sort of like a tremolo stabilizer that keeps the tremolo level and in tune when your not moving the tremolo arm, It's kind of like a full floating tremolo with a "detent" OR it's like "blocking" the tremolo BUT you can easily push past the blocking...

I hope that makes sense?

First I've heard of it and I'm going to look into it. I have a tremsetter in a DC727 and it doesn't really do much if anything.

I'm over Floyds. My DC700 is currently having reconstructive surgery to fill in the cavities (alder) for the floater and will be installing a Kahler. Better for stability when palm muting and hard picking. I also hate hearing the springs in the back. The pickups pick up coil spring vibes from picking so it sounds like a spring reverb tank in my guitar. I even have the Floyd coated springs. The Mag-Lok may convince me to keep the 727.

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Re: I got my new Kiesel guitar today and found something I'm not happy with...

Postby AxRookie » Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:40 pm

I'm loving this floyd on this new guitar, It stays in tune like none I've seen or played before...

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Re: I got my new Kiesel guitar today and found something I'm not happy with...

Postby ElfDude » Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:56 pm

Well, my Mag-Lok came in the mail today. Hoping I'll have a chance to install it in the Bolt tonight and see if it solves my problem or not.

Sure hope it does. 8)
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Re: I got my new Kiesel guitar today and found something I'm not happy with...

Postby ElfDude » Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:16 pm

And it has zero impact on tuning stability. :(

Sorry to hi-jack your thread.
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Re: I got my new Kiesel guitar today and found something I'm not happy with...

Postby AxRookie » Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:01 am

No, it's not for tuning stability, Are you having an issue with keeping in tune?

If yes and it's a floyd how heavy are your spring and how many do you use?

Maybe I can help you work through it? I have a few tricks up my sleeve that might be helpful?

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Re: I got my new Kiesel guitar today and found something I'm not happy with...

Postby AxRookie » Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:56 am

Well after sending my new Kiesel guitar back to the factory to repair some issues and getting it back I found another BIG issue with my repaired new Kiesel guitar!

I can't believe it actually left the Kiesel factory like this, While setting up my new guitar I now noticed this big issue with the Floyd Rose Nut as shown in the pictures below. From looking at my pictures it should be immediately obvious to anyone familiar with the correct installation of the Floyd Rose system what is horribly wrong with the nut installation...

Image

In case you are not familiar with the correct installation of the Floyd Rose system the locking nut needs to sit on a flat and level "shelf" that is parallel with the neck and the nut can be shimmed up with flat stainless steel shims if needed and here is where the issue is, The nut is not sitting flat and in fact it is rotated towards the neck as high lighted in this picture...

Image

I removed the nut to find a plastic shim that was made into a wedge! I did my best trying to show in these pictures what I found but if you can't make it out from these pictures the shim starts at .020 thick and tapers down to .000... And it's not tapered from side to side like they were trying to raise the low E string and not the high E string, It is tapered front to back which rotates the nut which is very bad for many reasons...

Image
Image
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How was it acceptable for this to leave the Kiesel factory like this, especially after there were Issues with this guitar the first time it left the Kiesel factory???

I emailed them about this over the weekend and have yet to hear back from them...

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Re: I got my new Kiesel guitar today and found something I'm not happy with...

Postby GuitFiddle » Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:27 am

Your guitar should have left the factory with a properly done set-up and the correct parts to achieve that set-up, no doubt about it. But I'm going to suggest something that may prove unpopular (but I'm known for that, LOL).

You clearly know what to look for and what to expect with a FR configuration and are understandably adamant that it is done without shortcuts. As such, at this point I would suggest acquiring the correct parts yourself and fixing it. You know the old adage, "If you want something done right...." You will learn your specific guitar intimately, get it exactly how you want it to be, and take pride in your efforts to correct the guitar. The truth of the matter is that if you want a truly perfect FR guitar, consistently, from the factory....you need to spend twice as much (or close to it) for a USA Schecter, Suhr, Anderson, proper ESP, that kind of thing. That's just how it is. Kiesel may sometimes get you there, and sometimes may not. But the bones are excellent, and a little attention from the owner can go a long way and right the ship without much trouble, regardless of whether or not you should have to.

This may or may not make you feel better, but it happens. About a year ago I took delivery of a DC127. It had one tuner cockeyed, the bridge pickup ground wasn't soldered in (only wrapped around), and had the wrong color pickups. I could have sent it back, but instead I alerted Kiesel's tech and asked if it was okay if I addressed the problems myself without affecting the warranty. I made sure to let him know I've been doing this stuff forever and everything I needed to do amounted to light work. He said go ahead with it...sent me the pickups, I soldered everything in, corrected the tuner which simply wasn't seated correctly, dotted a few other Is and Ts, and I was off to the races. The instrument shouldn't have made it it through QC, but the important fundamentals were 100% so I just fixed things.

Just something to consider.
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Re: I got my new Kiesel guitar today and found something I'm not happy with...

Postby AxRookie » Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:45 am

GuitFiddle wrote:Your guitar should have left the factory with a properly done set-up and the correct parts to achieve that set-up, no doubt about it. But I'm going to suggest something that may prove unpopular (but I'm known for that, LOL).

You clearly know what to look for and what to expect with a FR configuration and are understandably adamant that it is done without shortcuts. As such, at this point I would suggest acquiring the correct parts yourself and fixing it. You know the old adage, "If you want something done right...." You will learn your specific guitar intimately, get it exactly how you want it to be, and take pride in your efforts to correct the guitar. The truth of the matter is that if you want a truly perfect FR guitar, consistently, from the factory....you need to spend twice as much (or close to it) for a USA Schecter, Suhr, Anderson, proper ESP, that kind of thing. That's just how it is. Kiesel may sometimes get you there, and sometimes may not. But the bones are excellent, and a little attention from the owner can go a long way and right the ship without much trouble, regardless of whether or not you should have to.

This may or may not make you feel better, but it happens. About a year ago I took delivery of a DC127. It had one tuner cockeyed, the bridge pickup ground wasn't soldered in (only wrapped around), and had the wrong color pickups. I could have sent it back, but instead I alerted Kiesel's tech and asked if it was okay if I addressed the problems myself without affecting the warranty. I made sure to let him know I've been doing this stuff forever and everything I needed to do amounted to light work. He said go ahead with it...sent me the pickups, I soldered everything in, corrected the tuner which simply wasn't seated correctly, dotted a few other Is and Ts, and I was off to the races. The instrument shouldn't have made it it through QC, but the important fundamentals were 100% so I just fixed things.

Just something to consider.
You're a smart person, First I'd like to know what Kiesel's response is to this issue...

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Re: I got my new Kiesel guitar today and found something I'm not happy with...

Postby DannyB819 » Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:41 pm

AxRookie wrote:
GuitFiddle wrote:Your guitar should have left the factory with a properly done set-up and the correct parts to achieve that set-up, no doubt about it. But I'm going to suggest something that may prove unpopular (but I'm known for that, LOL).

You clearly know what to look for and what to expect with a FR configuration and are understandably adamant that it is done without shortcuts. As such, at this point I would suggest acquiring the correct parts yourself and fixing it. You know the old adage, "If you want something done right...." You will learn your specific guitar intimately, get it exactly how you want it to be, and take pride in your efforts to correct the guitar. The truth of the matter is that if you want a truly perfect FR guitar, consistently, from the factory....you need to spend twice as much (or close to it) for a USA Schecter, Suhr, Anderson, proper ESP, that kind of thing. That's just how it is. Kiesel may sometimes get you there, and sometimes may not. But the bones are excellent, and a little attention from the owner can go a long way and right the ship without much trouble, regardless of whether or not you should have to.

This may or may not make you feel better, but it happens. About a year ago I took delivery of a DC127. It had one tuner cockeyed, the bridge pickup ground wasn't soldered in (only wrapped around), and had the wrong color pickups. I could have sent it back, but instead I alerted Kiesel's tech and asked if it was okay if I addressed the problems myself without affecting the warranty. I made sure to let him know I've been doing this stuff forever and everything I needed to do amounted to light work. He said go ahead with it...sent me the pickups, I soldered everything in, corrected the tuner which simply wasn't seated correctly, dotted a few other Is and Ts, and I was off to the races. The instrument shouldn't have made it it through QC, but the important fundamentals were 100% so I just fixed things.

Just something to consider.
You're a smart person, First I'd like to know what Kiesel's response is to this issue...


I get painted as negative guy - perhaps deservedly - around these parts, but this is really indefensible. If a customer is paying for a custom guitar, that guitar should be flawless. There's a difference in the finish not being what the customer had in his/her head, the guitar not sounding like what the customer had in her/her head, or the neck profile not feeling right - matters of taste are part of the inherent risk in buying any guitar sight unseen.

But structural inadequacies, production flaws, obvious cases of mistakes being covered up, and shortcutting shouldn't ever be part of the equation. This isn't a $700 made in Korea guitar off the rack at Guitar Center. There's an expectation that "Made in the USA" guitars are of a higher standard and the price of a custom guitar - even a guitar as competitively priced as a Kiesel - should be leaps and bounds above that. This customer has experienced the opposite of that two times. And when you're paying high-end money for a custom guitar, no customer should have to DIY anything that isn't a matter of taste like a pickup change.

Mistakes do happen from time to time. I was once shipped a guitar from Suhr that had the wrong string gauge and I had to have the brand new guitar set up for a heavier gauge after an eight month wait. The guitar was flawless otherwise and they sent me some swag for the trouble. I'd totally order again. Even my custom shop order from Fender had a mistake in how it was wired. It was frustrating due to the wait time, but ultimately no biggie. I had to send it back, but the guitar was otherwise flawless from a construction standpoint and I was more nervous about the shipping than their ability to do fix the mistake. I was lucky with my Carvins in that all three weren't ideally what I wanted aesthetically and mistakes were made on that front, but structurally the guitars were spot-on...though I did replace all the electronics in two of them, while the other is and AC175 that sounds fantastic when plugged in.

I'm perhaps less forgiving, but if I had a guitar guitar shipped with multiple flaws like this, I'd run for the hills. Not only are these mistakes, but they indicate a lack of QC and/or lack of integrity in that they either know about the flaw and are hoping the customer doesn't notice, or they're unaware of the flaw and think it's an acceptable, shippable instrument. Either case is a pretty big failure.

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Re: I got my new Kiesel guitar today and found something I'm not happy with...

Postby AxRookie » Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:41 pm

I must say that other than the wrong color logo the guitar design and construction is second to none, The issues I've had have all been what I would call in the setup, With this guitar, it almost seems like they don't know much about the Floyd Rose Tremolo System and what can or can't be done setting up the system???

In the category of what can't be done, Using a plastic wedge shaped shim under the nut would def be one of the can't be done, There are several reasons why that is a no-no...

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Re: I got my new Kiesel guitar today and found something I'm not happy with...

Postby Naked Ape » Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:59 am

DannyB819 wrote:
I'm perhaps less forgiving, but if I had a guitar guitar shipped with multiple flaws like this, I'd run for the hills. Not only are these mistakes, but they indicate a lack of QC and/or lack of integrity in that they either know about the flaw and are hoping the customer doesn't notice, or they're unaware of the flaw and think it's an acceptable, shippable instrument. Either case is a pretty big failure.


Agreed.
This is disappointing to see. I wouldn't be happy with this either. :(
This makes me think that the best Luthier in the shop is the CNC machine. If it fails, the hands on tool workers are lacking skills, or...... (giving the benefit of the doubt) lacking time, materials, tools, or ??
Pretty colors and wood grains are great, but 'build quality' and 'attention to detail' are the differences between a good guitar, and a GREAT Guitar.
I can only hope.....that lessons are learned, from mistakes that are made. :)

AxRookie, Is this the original guitar with a new headstock logo? Or a different guitar altogether?

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Re: I got my new Kiesel guitar today and found something I'm not happy with...

Postby GuitFiddle » Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:44 am

DannyB819 wrote:I get painted as negative guy - perhaps deservedly - around these parts, but this is really indefensible. If a customer is paying for a custom guitar, that guitar should be flawless. There's a difference in the finish not being what the customer had in his/her head, the guitar not sounding like what the customer had in her/her head, or the neck profile not feeling right - matters of taste are part of the inherent risk in buying any guitar sight unseen.

But structural inadequacies, production flaws, obvious cases of mistakes being covered up, and shortcutting shouldn't ever be part of the equation. This isn't a $700 made in Korea guitar off the rack at Guitar Center. There's an expectation that "Made in the USA" guitars are of a higher standard and the price of a custom guitar - even a guitar as competitively priced as a Kiesel - should be leaps and bounds above that. This customer has experienced the opposite of that two times. And when you're paying high-end money for a custom guitar, no customer should have to DIY anything that isn't a matter of taste like a pickup change.

Mistakes do happen from time to time. I was once shipped a guitar from Suhr that had the wrong string gauge and I had to have the brand new guitar set up for a heavier gauge after an eight month wait. The guitar was flawless otherwise and they sent me some swag for the trouble. I'd totally order again. Even my custom shop order from Fender had a mistake in how it was wired. It was frustrating due to the wait time, but ultimately no biggie. I had to send it back, but the guitar was otherwise flawless from a construction standpoint and I was more nervous about the shipping than their ability to do fix the mistake. I was lucky with my Carvins in that all three weren't ideally what I wanted aesthetically and mistakes were made on that front, but structurally the guitars were spot-on...though I did replace all the electronics in two of them, while the other is and AC175 that sounds fantastic when plugged in.

I'm perhaps less forgiving, but if I had a guitar guitar shipped with multiple flaws like this, I'd run for the hills. Not only are these mistakes, but they indicate a lack of QC and/or lack of integrity in that they either know about the flaw and are hoping the customer doesn't notice, or they're unaware of the flaw and think it's an acceptable, shippable instrument. Either case is a pretty big failure.


You're absolutely right on all counts. But experience and history, much of it documented, indicate otherwise in more cases than any of us tend to expect (and frankly more often than is acceptable IMO). It's just something people need to be aware of when ordering a Kiesel, again IMO. It's part of the experience for better or worse. It definitely needs a thorough going-through to make sure things are correct, and based on personal experience there is a solid chance you're going to need to address a thing or two. It is what it is, and it's up to the customer to decide to deal with it or avoid it altogether.

Take my latest acquisition....an Osiris bass that landed a few weeks ago. It is...perfect, to me. No flaws to speak of. First thing I noticed when I picked it up is that the neck felt a little thicker than I expected (a good thing for me). When I look at the end of the neck from the headpiece, the neck contour stands a little proud of the headpiece on the bass side of the neck, the rest of the neck follows it exactly. So I've got a bit of an asymmetrical neck profile going on that feels great, probably due to the hand sanding of the neck. I have no issues with that whatsoever. But that might drive another buyer crazy and lead them to send it back. As an aside, a buyer here posted some pics of a guitar he received with the opposite problem - the profile undercut the headpiece pretty substantially on the treble side of the neck. He wan't happy about it and I think he sent it back.

Beware the $700 Korean comparison. Last one I bought - a Schecter Blackjack with an FR on clearance about 4 years ago, still in the box - was perfect, including all the FR bits. Routing, alignment, shimming, radius, setup, all of it. There are dangerously good guitars out there for not a lot of scratch.
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Re: I got my new Kiesel guitar today and found something I'm not happy with...

Postby AxRookie » Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:38 am

Naked Ape wrote:
DannyB819 wrote:
I'm perhaps less forgiving, but if I had a guitar guitar shipped with multiple flaws like this, I'd run for the hills. Not only are these mistakes, but they indicate a lack of QC and/or lack of integrity in that they either know about the flaw and are hoping the customer doesn't notice, or they're unaware of the flaw and think it's an acceptable, shippable instrument. Either case is a pretty big failure.


Agreed.
This is disappointing to see. I wouldn't be happy with this either. :(
This makes me think that the best Luthier in the shop is the CNC machine. If it fails, the hands on tool workers are lacking skills, or...... (giving the benefit of the doubt) lacking time, materials, tools, or ??
Pretty colors and wood grains are great, but 'build quality' and 'attention to detail' are the differences between a good guitar, and a GREAT Guitar.
I can only hope.....that lessons are learned, from mistakes that are made. :)

AxRookie, Is this the original guitar with a new headstock logo? Or a different guitar altogether?
Original guitar, They did a great job on the logo replacement other than the fact that there is a LOT of paint and clear coat overspray on the CNC cut nut shelf that defeats the precision of a CNC to cut it in the first place...

I don't want to come off as slamming them because there is so much about this guitar to like so I'm only stating my experience with my new guitar as it happens in more or less real-time...

I'm not one of those people who aren't happy unless they have something to complain about and I really want to love everything about my new guitar BUT I can't overlook a few issues I've come across, So far... none of which even comes close to me want to ask for my money back, So far...

If I had to sum up my experience with my new Kiesel guitar in one slogan I'd have to say "Kiesel guitars, Some final assembly required"...
Last edited by AxRookie on Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:16 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: I got my new Kiesel guitar today and found something I'm not happy with...

Postby AxRookie » Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:46 am

GuitFiddle wrote:
DannyB819 wrote:I get painted as negative guy - perhaps deservedly - around these parts, but this is really indefensible. If a customer is paying for a custom guitar, that guitar should be flawless. There's a difference in the finish not being what the customer had in his/her head, the guitar not sounding like what the customer had in her/her head, or the neck profile not feeling right - matters of taste are part of the inherent risk in buying any guitar sight unseen.

But structural inadequacies, production flaws, obvious cases of mistakes being covered up, and shortcutting shouldn't ever be part of the equation. This isn't a $700 made in Korea guitar off the rack at Guitar Center. There's an expectation that "Made in the USA" guitars are of a higher standard and the price of a custom guitar - even a guitar as competitively priced as a Kiesel - should be leaps and bounds above that. This customer has experienced the opposite of that two times. And when you're paying high-end money for a custom guitar, no customer should have to DIY anything that isn't a matter of taste like a pickup change.

Mistakes do happen from time to time. I was once shipped a guitar from Suhr that had the wrong string gauge and I had to have the brand new guitar set up for a heavier gauge after an eight month wait. The guitar was flawless otherwise and they sent me some swag for the trouble. I'd totally order again. Even my custom shop order from Fender had a mistake in how it was wired. It was frustrating due to the wait time, but ultimately no biggie. I had to send it back, but the guitar was otherwise flawless from a construction standpoint and I was more nervous about the shipping than their ability to do fix the mistake. I was lucky with my Carvins in that all three weren't ideally what I wanted aesthetically and mistakes were made on that front, but structurally the guitars were spot-on...though I did replace all the electronics in two of them, while the other is and AC175 that sounds fantastic when plugged in.

I'm perhaps less forgiving, but if I had a guitar guitar shipped with multiple flaws like this, I'd run for the hills. Not only are these mistakes, but they indicate a lack of QC and/or lack of integrity in that they either know about the flaw and are hoping the customer doesn't notice, or they're unaware of the flaw and think it's an acceptable, shippable instrument. Either case is a pretty big failure.


You're absolutely right on all counts. But experience and history, much of it documented, indicate otherwise in more cases than any of us tend to expect (and frankly more often than is acceptable IMO). It's just something people need to be aware of when ordering a Kiesel, again IMO. It's part of the experience for better or worse. It definitely needs a thorough going-through to make sure things are correct, and based on personal experience there is a solid chance you're going to need to address a thing or two. It is what it is, and it's up to the customer to decide to deal with it or avoid it altogether.

Take my latest acquisition....an Osiris bass that landed a few weeks ago. It is...perfect, to me. No flaws to speak of. First thing I noticed when I picked it up is that the neck felt a little thicker than I expected (a good thing for me). When I look at the end of the neck from the headpiece, the neck contour stands a little proud of the headpiece on the bass side of the neck, the rest of the neck follows it exactly. So I've got a bit of an asymmetrical neck profile going on that feels great, probably due to the hand sanding of the neck. I have no issues with that whatsoever. But that might drive another buyer crazy and lead them to send it back. As an aside, a buyer here posted some pics of a guitar he received with the opposite problem - the profile undercut the headpiece pretty substantially on the treble side of the neck. He wan't happy about it and I think he sent it back.

Beware the $700 Korean comparison. Last one I bought - a Schecter Blackjack with an FR on clearance about 4 years ago, still in the box - was perfect, including all the FR bits. Routing, alignment, shimming, radius, setup, all of it. There are dangerously good guitars out there for not a lot of scratch.
I can't disagree with anything you've said here...

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Re: I got my new Kiesel guitar today and found something I'm not happy with...

Postby AxRookie » Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:12 pm

I've had no response to the new issue from the emails sent over the weekend to both...

Albert Comas
Head Guitar Tech

Joe Stone
Kiesel Guitars customer service

So I just now sent an email to both to remind them I'm still waiting for a response to the new issue I've come across since them returning my new guitar for repair work...

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Re: I got my new Kiesel guitar today and found something I'm not happy with...

Postby spudmunkey » Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:28 pm

Not that it means or changes anything, but 'slow to respond to email' has been a Carvin/Kiesel hallmark since I've been a member here.

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Re: I got my new Kiesel guitar today and found something I'm not happy with...

Postby AxRookie » Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:21 pm

spudmunkey wrote:Not that it means or changes anything, but 'slow to respond to email' has been a Carvin/Kiesel hallmark since I've been a member here.
I understand what you're saying, I'm waiting patiently for a response...

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Re: I got my new Kiesel guitar today and found something I'm not happy with...

Postby AxRookie » Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:56 pm

Kiesel sent me an email today offering me to send it back and before I could reply back there was a FedX shipping lable waiting for me should I need it!

Which I don't because I fixed the issue myself using the correct metal shim made for the FR locking nut.

So now it's back to checking out my new guitar and playing it until my fingers bleed! :rockon:

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Re: I got my new Kiesel guitar today and found something I'm not happy with...

Postby GuitFiddle » Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:34 am

All is well that ends well....and it was a heck of a lot easier than sending it back again! Enjoy and play it in good health....
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Re: I got my new Kiesel guitar today and found something I'm not happy with...

Postby AxRookie » Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:27 pm

I don't know if it's the upgraded Graph Tech Floyd Rose String Saver Saddles I used but this Floyd Rose tremolo stays in tune like no other FR I've ever seen or heard of, I can go nut's with it with dive bombs and pull-ups and bend strings until the cows come home and It's still in tune with no reset techniques like always pushing down on the tremolo arm after you've used the tremolo or bent some strings!

I've never had A Floyd that worked so good before? :rockon:

I'd like to think it's just that I'm so good at setting up a Floyd but I seriously doubt it, It's got to be something else... lol


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