Lithium pickups

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texastoast
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Re: Lithium pickups

Postby texastoast » Sat Jul 29, 2017 5:28 am

Tabare777 wrote:Sentient/Pegasus set sound nice and fat really, like an old Paf set, def not very hot & still clear.



In my ignorance I dismissed them as Norwegian death metal pickups based on the name only. I never gave them a second look. Maybe I need to. They will build them for the multi Kiesels. I just did not wish to spend the custom shop prices on something I was not going to like. Maybe I will buy some and check them out. Good enough for you, good enough for me.

I am traveling right now. The only thing I am wondering is if being south of the equator makes the pickups work as reverse wound :lol:

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Re: Lithium pickups

Postby Doctor Turn » Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:34 am

Every time I've heard those pickups, there's too much of a tight, crystal driving attack and hugely pointed articulation that disassociates itself completely from a PAF from my mind. I've played old bursts and PAF laden Gibsons (and own some very PAF like buckers), and there's a slightly blurred softness and warmth on the attack (that sharpens up via pots and the rich harmonics of a good PAF) that those Duncans just don't have. PAF'S in super high gain metal situations are pure rasputitsa, mud for days and close to a disaster.

I've never heard that wide, soft harmonic attack of a PAF even on the Sentient, which is closer to a PAF in character. It's still very very articulate, doesn't have that rude dirty fuzzy blur on the attack. It's very sharp. And why it's always marketed as a set to modern high gain metal players almost exclusively.

Would you agree Rodrigo? It's just what I've heard off that set.

It's not an easy trick to keep the character of a PAF, while amping up output and winding for a heavy mid hi spike for ultra articulation. The fuzzy width disappears. It's a problem when trying to put a bump in P90'S also... They wind up completely losing that completely unique character we all love so much. The majority of the custom shop P90s out there today are just junk to my ears, none of them have that thick papery rasp. Same goes for bumped PAF style pups, which are not all that different sonically from P90s.

M22's do that trick really well. . . Hanging on to that thick authoritative crunch full of paf/TTop warmth and harmonics, while pulling off an articulation bump.
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Re: Lithium pickups

Postby Tabare777 » Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:47 pm

I play 8 string guitars, so the M series are not part of my experience.

Apart from a few Metal excursions, I play Jazz and Fusion and I find that the pegasus doesn't really give me that hard out high gain snarl, as I stated earlier, Santana-esque(Pegasus) and Sentient is Martino-esque with my settings anyway.
Probably sounds alien to Metal guys and gear nerds but it is what it is, soon will post a couple of clips with the Lithos and the SDs so you get the picture a bit clearer...
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Re: Lithium pickups

Postby MatiasTolkki » Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:32 am

UnexplodedCow wrote:True, and it's a fun discussion, and regardless of our ears on Lithiums, we can agree on the M22V/SD set. I call it Carvin's best, and it rivals an L500R/Xl set in sound. The neck pickups are so similar sounding that it's really not funny. Both sets can cover any ground, but the M22 set is slightly less expensive, and I like the 3 screw mounting.


The M22 set is a LOT cheaper than the lithiums, and I like the 12 pole pieces more than standard pups. I really with we could get colored M22s because I'd love a set of red ones :/
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Re: Lithium pickups

Postby MatiasTolkki » Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:38 am

Tabare777 wrote:I play 8 string guitars, so the M series are not part of my experience.

Apart from a few Metal excursions, I play Jazz and Fusion and I find that the pegasus doesn't really give me that hard out high gain snarl, as I stated earlier, Santana-esque(Pegasus) and Sentient is Martino-esque with my settings anyway.
Probably sounds alien to Metal guys and gear nerds but it is what it is, soon will post a couple of clips with the Lithos and the SDs so you get the picture a bit clearer...


I like the 6 string Pegasus/sentient set. I have a sentient combined with an M22SD in my E-II because the sentient had a similar output peak as the M22V so I thought I'd try it combined with the M22SD. They sound REALLY nice together.

And just to qualify, I typically hate Duncans. I have used a Perpetual burn in a basswood Ibanez and aforementioned E-II and I just didn't like it at all. Too high-mid heavy and too clear. Great for Jason, not for me. Now I had tried the pegasus/sentient 6 string set in an ESP M-II, alder body, maple neck, maple board and I REALLY liked em, which is surprising considering I have always had a bad relationship with Duncans. I think the 6 stringers are REALLY good pups and I'd recommend them for just about anything.
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Re: Lithium pickups

Postby colossal » Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:47 am

Tabare777 wrote:Hey brother!
Sentient/Pegasus set sound nice and fat really, like an old Paf set, def not very hot & still clear.
Neck sounds great on my DC800, great for Pat Martino-esque type tones, also meaty clean tones and split is great too,
Bridge sounds beautiful, Santana-ish lead tones from my Holdsworth lead tone setting(hd500 & amp), chocolatey as Lindt...
Split in middle position (both inner coils) is incredible FAT QUACK SPANK!!!

Wow, thanks, that is a very helpful description! That's really great about the Sentient/Pegasus. I had no idea they were in the PAF family. That's really the sound I prefer. Open, airy, woody...When I read your reply, I thought about the Letchford model. Thin, chambered mahogany body and neck, and with a pair of PAFs :think:. Suddenly that model is looking interesting :lol:

Tabare777 wrote:The Lithiums are cool also, very clear, transparent and airy, not coloured; kind of like cd to vinyl...
Many guys don't seem to get it, they're like a blank canvas, you colour the tone with your tone knob, amp and effects...

I think maybe that is why I have not cared for them so far. I have not heard them sound *bad*, just not how I would prefer. The Lithium single coil would be cool to check out too.

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Re: Lithium pickups

Postby Doctor Turn » Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:38 am

I'm not critiquing the sound of the pickup, or saying I don't like it (it's a nice sounding neck pup), or saying it doesn't have nice rich sustain.. etc etc. I'm just stressing that the tightly focused, hugely articulate quality of that neck pickup is a good distance from PAF-land. PAF's are not anywhere near as pinpointed on the attack as a Sentient is.

Anyhow-- avanti, ragazzi!! :mrgreen:
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Re: Lithium pickups

Postby Cynical » Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:25 pm

Doctor Turn wrote:PAF'S in super high gain metal situations are pure rasputitsa, mud for days and close to a disaster.

:think:

The definitive Norwegian black metal album was recorded on a Les Paul with PAFs....

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Re: Lithium pickups

Postby gumbynotpokey » Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:32 pm

some towns have irregularly high levels of lithium in their ground water naturally, and have a relatively lower incidence of bipolar spectrum disorder(s) in their populations, compared to the rate of bipolar disorder in towns with normal levels of lithium in their groundwater (respectively).

and now, back to your regularly scheduled thread on lithium
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Re: Lithium pickups

Postby Abdababda » Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:58 pm

Lithium pickups will be in my new GH3. I am looking forward to hearing what they sound like.

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Re: Lithium pickups

Postby Doctor Turn » Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:01 pm

Cynical wrote:
Doctor Turn wrote:PAF'S in super high gain metal situations are pure rasputitsa, mud for days and close to a disaster.

:think:

The definitive Norwegian black metal album was recorded on a Les Paul with PAFs....


He played an actual quarter million dollar Les Paul Standard with actual PAF's? Or did he play a Gibson Les Paul with... Some pckups? They could be dirty fingers, they could be 400 series, they could be any number of pickups.

I'm not saying that aggressive music can't be played with them furchrissakes. You just plug in and play heavy music and there you go. Supposedly EVH original frankenstrat had a PAF in it.

But these are not rigs that you're going to find onstage in the modern metal scene. There's a reason why metal guitarists choose high output pickups instead of soft pickups like PAF clones....
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Re: Lithium pickups

Postby gibvel » Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:35 am

Tabare777 wrote:soon will post a couple of clips with the Lithos and the SDs so you get the picture a bit clearer...


Please do!! Not to look a gift horse in the mouth but will it be soon? :D

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Re: Lithium pickups

Postby Cynical » Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:13 am

Doctor Turn wrote:
Cynical wrote:
Doctor Turn wrote:PAF'S in super high gain metal situations are pure rasputitsa, mud for days and close to a disaster.

:think:

The definitive Norwegian black metal album was recorded on a Les Paul with PAFs....


He played an actual quarter million dollar Les Paul Standard with actual PAF's? Or did he play a Gibson Les Paul with... Some pckups? They could be dirty fingers, they could be 400 series, they could be any number of pickups.

80s LP Standard with Shaws.

Having higher output pickups doesn't make you less muddy when playing metal. Quite the opposite in many cases.

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Re: Lithium pickups

Postby Doctor Turn » Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:18 am

Yes, so modern metal and djent players choose hi articulation pickups to muddy up their sound.

Chick chick. BOOM.
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Re: Lithium pickups

Postby Cynical » Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:30 am

High output and high articulation aren't the same thing.

Furthermore, many modern metal sub-genres aren't looking for super-articulate pickups. Djent isn't representative of the wider picture. Saying "guys like Misha Mansoor want really articulate pickups, so that style of pickup must be desired in modern metal more than thicker/softer pickups" is like saying "Jimi Hendrix plays on a Strats, so Fenders must be more desired in classic rock than Gibsons".

Pretty much any metal pickup is going to need a strong upper-midrange (note that I say "strong"; you don't need it to be "spiked" to the extent that it is on a Lithium or an Aftermath or whatever for most subgenres). Beyond that... the field is open. Everything below 800Hz or above about 5000Hz barely exists; the Tube Screamers with the tone knobs set to about 5 that almost everyone runs at the start of their chain sees to that.

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Re: Lithium pickups

Postby Doctor Turn » Tue Aug 01, 2017 10:41 am

Good Lord. I just can't keep circling this same pole with you, but I'll try one last time:

You're saying these things to me as though they're corrections to my original statement:

PAF's are hardly used in modern metal because of their soft subdued articulation level.

For the kind of staccato unison polyrhythmic runs that are all the rage right now, they're counterintuitive. And are hardly used. Sure in the early 90's you can pull Mayhem and Euronymous (frankly blurry and muddy) playing, because it's a completely different era and before the current scene. So he's working with good equipment from that era (Where are you finding the Shaw info, btw?)

My point was not about output. You're moving the subject of the conversation to the same ditch you always wind up with me, proclaiming things everyone knows as though they're obscure truths, because you can't help yourself. You're widening the argument to find something to combat a statement from me which is industrially empirical.

Of course you can wind moderate to vintage output pickups to increase articulation versus others in the same output range. THAT'S WHY I'M TALKING SPECIFICALLY ABOUT PAFS AND NOT LOW OUTPUT PICKUPS IN GENERAL. That's the very core and foundation of this discussion. The Sentient is a rather mild output pickup in the same output resistance ( in terms of this specific measurement) as a PAF. But it is an extremely precise, crystalline pickup with excellent articulation. Thereby marketed by their maker to modern metal players for their articulation. PAFS are not my code for all low output pickups. They're my code for PAFS. PAF vs Sentient... That's all this discussion is about.

At this point I'm not going to reply further, it's pointless and lapses into the same mannerisms it usually does. Although I'm curious about the shawbucker attribution.

Rodrigo I look forward to your sound samples along with everyone else.
Carvin Weaponry:
1985 DC150K (koa) Stereo, M22N/M22SD w/black hardware.
1985 100 Watt X Amp 2 x 12 combo (XV212) upgraded w/ 2 Vintage 30's
...and other gear.

https://soundcloud.com/the_heavy_clouds

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Re: Lithium pickups

Postby Cynical » Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:38 am

Re: Euronymous and Shaws -- chrome covered stock pickups on an early '80s LP standard. Nothing else they could be. T-tops, 400s, and Dirty Fingers weren't covered; the Lawrence pickups weren't around until after that guitar had already been used to record the Checker Patrol "Metalion in the Park" and Mayhem "Pure ****ing Armageddon" demos.

I think we're using different definitions of "muddy". I've always heard the term used to refer to guitar sounds where the bass frequencies murder the rest of the tone and make it difficult to pick out the melody line, such as the sound on Teitanblood's "Seven Chalices".

(Also, I'd like to point out that you're the one who originally mentioned output, not me: "But these are not rigs that you're going to find onstage in the modern metal scene. There's a reason why metal guitarists choose high output pickups instead of soft pickups like PAF clones...." And that's not even going into your claim that djenty polyrhythmic stuff is "all the rage" these days, while ignoring the resurgence of the "Cascadian" black metal sound and the "caverncore" and "war metal" lo-fi death metal trends. The reason I keep being "combative" with you is because you keep saying really weird things, and, in this case, backpedalling off of them to other really weird things.)

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Re: Lithium pickups

Postby Doctor Turn » Tue Aug 01, 2017 1:25 pm

TTops/Patent number pups weren't covered pickups? Since when?

https://reverb.com/item/5615118-1960s-1 ... _BwE&pla=1
https://reverb.com/item/5656313-vintage ... _BwE&pla=1
People even sell the pickup covers:
https://reverb.com/item/961126-1965-gib ... ustom-1968

400 series pups weren't covered? An 80's/early 90's 490 series set:
https://reverb.com/item/6148736-late-19 ... _BwE&pla=1

1983 LP Studio with 490's in tact:
Image

Dude you're more fatiguing than dragging an anvil using my eyelid. Your entire M.O. is to hoist minor exceptions to industrial paradigms and claim you've upended norms that go on, regardless. You say the same thing over and over again in every conversation, you keep steering our conversations to the same bleating, breathless end.. "B-but high output doesn't HAVE to mean (insert positive quality of articulation/etc)," or "DC Resistance doesn't sum the output of a pickup." Yeah, a-duh.

Welcome to my "ignore" list. You're only the second.
Carvin Weaponry:
1985 DC150K (koa) Stereo, M22N/M22SD w/black hardware.
1985 100 Watt X Amp 2 x 12 combo (XV212) upgraded w/ 2 Vintage 30's
...and other gear.

https://soundcloud.com/the_heavy_clouds

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Re: Lithium pickups

Postby Cynical » Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:07 pm

From the first link, "the covers are not original to this pickup".

The 490 you linked is from after the early Mayhem stuff was recorded (PFA was released in 1986).

But do feel free to continue being ignorant.

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Re: Lithium pickups

Postby Doctor Turn » Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:03 pm

Herp:



After PAF pickups were gone, the patent# pickups were next and used from 1962 to 1965. Then from 1965 to 1975 (note overlap) the next Gibson humbucker is known as the "T bucker" or "T top". They are called this because of a "T" that is part of the molding on the front of the two pickup bobbins. These also had the decal with "Patent No 2,737,842" (still the patent number of Les Paul's trapeze tailpiece). The only way to see the "T" is to remove the pickup cover. A small change in late patent# pickups was white PVC bobbin wires instead of black (black was used on pre-1965 humbuckers). Also T buckers can use either slot or phillips head screws to hold the bobbins to the base plate.

When buying used Gibson pickups, many people will buy the "Patent No." style with an unopened nickel-plated cover. This pretty much guarentees you'll get a "good" pickup at a fair price (opposed to buying a PAF pickup with the "Patent Applied For" decal intact, which sell for more money). Sonically the nickel plated covered patent# pickups are excellent values, as they are very similar in sound to a real PAF pickup (but are much less expensive). Note if you buy a chrome covered Gibson pickup, it's a crap shoot as to what's inside - it could be either a T-bucker or not (but chances are good it will be a T-Top). For this reason I would generally avoid chrome covered Gibson humbuckers (unless they are really inexpensive), as the odds are against you in hopes of finding a non-Ttop.


(Eric Clapton playing his TTop loaded Crossroads ES:)

Image

The Les Paul XRii I pictured at the bottom of my last post is vintage 400 series loaded, with stock pickups from 1983. Here's a Custom from the early 80's with original 400's
Image



For your edification . . .
http://forum.gibson.com/index.php?/topic/96782-gibson-tar-back-pickups/

derp

more:

Quote:
I have an old Gibson Pickup manual that states this:

Designed in 1971 by Gibson, The super humbucking has a stronger, hotter output that the Original humbucking, combined with better low and high end frequency respeonse. This is somewhat of a paradox in that as a general rule the hotter the pickups, (higher the impedance); the less high end response you have at your disposal.

The Super humbucking is well suited for Fusion, Rock, and Country players.

Specifications:

Inductance 4.7 Henries
Resonant Peak 5.8 Khz
DC resistance 7.8 K ohms (at 1000 cps)
Impedance High
Two Active upper coils
One Ceramtic Magnet (indox 7)
Adjustable pole pieces
Removeable pickup cover
2 point height adjustment

Are we good now?
Carvin Weaponry:
1985 DC150K (koa) Stereo, M22N/M22SD w/black hardware.
1985 100 Watt X Amp 2 x 12 combo (XV212) upgraded w/ 2 Vintage 30's
...and other gear.

https://soundcloud.com/the_heavy_clouds


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