Kiesel Random Thoughts (not worth their own thread)

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Re: Kiesel Random Thoughts (not worth their own thread)

Postby DesmoBob » Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:04 am

Just had a revelation. Realized I always reach for my Kiesel/Carvins first. The only time I reach for something else is if I'm drinking (unless I need a specific sound like an actual Strat, then I'll reach for a Strat). For just playing in general, I need to be buzzed to play anything other than my K/Cs. :|

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Re: Kiesel Random Thoughts (not worth their own thread)

Postby Casual Madman » Tue Jun 06, 2017 8:57 am

Omsong wrote:... it seems to me that we too often obsess about appearance more than play-ability; myself included.


Exactly. A few years ago when a surprise influx of cash allowed me to order a new Carvin, I fell in love with spalted maple. Had to have it.

Couldn't afford it on the guitar I actually wanted, a CS. So I built an ST300, instead, to stay on-budget. It was a totally awesome guitar, played like a dream, more tonal possibilities than I ever could use... And as much as I wanted to, felt like I ought to, I just couldn't LOVE it.

It wasn't the guitar for me. I knew it when I ordered it, but thought I could adjust to the different construction (neck through instead of set neck, flat top instead of carved, double cut instead of single, string through body instead of stop tail, master V/T instead of... You get the idea) and different style. I was wrong.

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Re: Kiesel Random Thoughts (not worth their own thread)

Postby Omsong » Tue Jun 06, 2017 12:17 pm

Blinded by a beautiful face and body... the story of mankind! :(

Casual madnman - so what is the rest of the story? Did you eventually get your carved top?
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Re: Kiesel Random Thoughts (not worth their own thread)

Postby EL_SUPER_BEASTO » Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:17 pm

One of my three guitars has been down for repairs since two months ago, it's actually a replacement that the same shop managed to damage again, but it was supposed to be my dedicated rhythm tracking/noodling guitar paired with the Kiesel and one other as lead guitars. The other lead guitar is a bit dark and doesn't have a trem, the Kiesel is much more "musical" sounding overall and has a trem— so I tend to play the Kiesel. I use the Kiesel toggled to single coils a lot, my other guitars can't do that either. I just like it more all things considered- but I like having guitars that look, sound, and play a little differently.

Deciding which guitar to play is always an awesome decision though, I wish I had more Kiesels to choose from.
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Re: Kiesel Random Thoughts (not worth their own thread)

Postby Casual Madman » Wed Jun 07, 2017 10:09 pm

Omsong wrote:... so what is the rest of the story? Did you eventually get your carved top?


The story's been told here and there elsewhere on the forum, but here is the TL;DR version.

First I traded the Strat I never really bonded with for an Ibanez Destroyer - beautiful cherry sunburst flametop, great DiMarzio pickups, exactly the classic "Gibson" feel and sound I've always gravitated to. Became my Number One.

Traded the ST300 for a pair of Epiphone Les Pauls. "Sparkles" is fabulous. "Darkles" needs new pups, don't like what's in there in a live setting (muddy) - plays great, though.

Killed the Ibby (fell off the strap, broken headstock - "repaired" but not very well, will never be a player's guitar again). Wallowed quietly in grief for a few months, then went to the Dallas International Guitar Festival and copped a brand new 2017 LP Classic.

Great guitar - everything I wanted, nothing I didn't. Would still like a CS someday, but it will be a long while before I can swing it. I'm happy for now to look at others' eye candy.

That was pretty long-winded for a TL;DR. Sorry.

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Re: Kiesel Random Thoughts (not worth their own thread)

Postby Omsong » Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:13 am

Casual Madman wrote:That was pretty long-winded for a TL;DR. Sorry.


Your story sounds like one of those dark "I found the love of my life but she was hit by a train" type C&W ballads... :laughhard:

It's all karma, bro!
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Re: Kiesel Random Thoughts (not worth their own thread)

Postby UnexplodedCow » Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:05 am

Omsong wrote:
Casual Madman wrote:That was pretty long-winded for a TL;DR. Sorry.


Your story sounds like one of those dark "I found the love of my life but she was hit by a train" type C&W ballads... :laughhard:

It's all karma, bro!


I was thinking more along the lines of "Bubba shot the jukebox last night," but I suppose the sentiment is similar.
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Re: Kiesel Random Thoughts (not worth their own thread)

Postby Kellameron » Thu Jun 08, 2017 3:12 pm

Koshchei wrote:Why do people always attribute the tone and technique to the guitar and never to the player's years of committed practice?


Of course both play a role. But I ache hearing a great player on a crappy instrument. Yeah, it sounds like them - through a slightly off-channel AM radio......


spudmunkey wrote:I always wondered...why is it that so many people ask "what's the body wood?"


Apparently most haven't watched things like this: https://www.youtube.com/embed/1mH5hwLkxCI[/quote]


Casual Madman wrote:
Killed the Ibby (fell off the strap, broken headstock...


This happened one day to the guitarist in my first gig. Fortunately it caught one of the top tuner handles and bent that, although there was a crack at the neck/body joint. That's why they make strap locks.


@Unexploded Cow: having started with solid state, then moved onto digital......I prefer tubes. Now most amps and configurations wouldn't suit me, but I found a B-52 halfstack that came close.

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Re: Kiesel Random Thoughts (not worth their own thread)

Postby spudmunkey » Thu Jun 08, 2017 3:46 pm

Kellameron wrote:
spudmunkey wrote:I always wondered...why is it that so many people ask "what's the body wood?"


Apparently most haven't watched things like this: https://www.youtube.com/embed/1mH5hwLkxCI


Actually, for me it wouldn't even matter if the person asking subscribed to, or didn't believe in the concept of 'tone woods" at all. I guess my issue is that it's a photo of someone else's guitar, painted in a solid paint, made by a custom shop that can put any number of woods in it an it wouldn't effect the looks of the guitar at all. It would be like me posting a photo of a burger at a restaurant, and then someone asking "Are there any Nissan Altimas in the parking lot?"

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Re: Kiesel Random Thoughts (not worth their own thread)

Postby Koshchei » Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:10 pm

I buy them because they're pretty, but yeah, that's pretty conclusive.

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Re: Kiesel Random Thoughts (not worth their own thread)

Postby UnexplodedCow » Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:26 pm

I've seen other videos, but not that one. My only possible argument with that is the pickups, if stock Squier ones (I believe he said that in the video) are wax potted, which drastically cuts down on microphonics.

Unpotted pickups, in my opinion (and personal experience) *might* exhibit a very (very) small change in sound, depending on the guitar they're mounted to, especially between a hollow (not chambered, but actual hollow) and solid body. Most of it would show up as feedback anyway, at high volumes.

Overall, that video is basically why I don't believe in tonewoods for electrics. Headstocks, neck joints, vibratos, and sometimes hardware are another matter, but I still think it comes down more to pickups.
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Re: Kiesel Random Thoughts (not worth their own thread)

Postby spudmunkey » Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:20 pm

Don't know what the pickups were, only that they were labeled "Duncan designed"

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Re: Kiesel Random Thoughts (not worth their own thread)

Postby EL_SUPER_BEASTO » Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:18 am

I'm not a smart man and can't really explain it in technical terms, but this seems pretty conclusive.
Same amp, same mic, same pickups, same strumming, same construction, different woods:
https://youtu.be/OLxE8iDWD_w?t=4m38s
I like this guy's conclusion and comparison as well:
https://youtu.be/YILmjHtK0UI

I think that if you're getting a guitar built then it matters. It's important to make educated decisions in the direction of what you would want sight unseen and all. I wouldn't turn my nose up at a guitar because it had the wrong pickups for my playing, but you can't quantify wood tones and swap them out if they don't fit you. Of course the electronics are more influential in a solidbody electric, a minute detail is the wood and even more minute then the exact sample of wood used. I think Kiesel could make a great guitar out of cutting board, but who here knows what a cutting board sounds like in comparison to a particleboard workshop table or Mohaganny? It would be neat to do, but I don't see people really lining up for it is all.
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Re: Kiesel Random Thoughts (not worth their own thread)

Postby spudmunkey » Fri Jun 09, 2017 10:10 am

The issue I have with most "proof!" videos is that they don't re-use the same electronics. Not just "same brand and model" but moving the exact same units back and forth. We've all heard two versions of the exact same model sound slightly different, right? There's got to be some tolerances in pickup and electronics components, which could have an effect, no? The earlier video posted even went so far as to use the exact same strings and bridge!

On the one with the two strats, who's to say that maybe one of them didn't have shims in the neck pocket, or a nut that was cut differently, or something that would come from manufacturing tolerances?
Last edited by spudmunkey on Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Kiesel Random Thoughts (not worth their own thread)

Postby EL_SUPER_BEASTO » Fri Jun 09, 2017 10:23 am

The "proof" aspect I can understand, because it's not proof it's only (IMO overwhelming) evidence. I highly doubt the variance is due to different pots, pickups, or neck shims all the same.

Full disclosure, I'm already convinced due to my personal experiences. That said, I really don't think those factors being present during these tests equate to an unreasonable margin of error at the ear. Even then, if neck shims matter then intrinsically so should neck wood, it just doesn't work from a dialectic approach.
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Re: Kiesel Random Thoughts (not worth their own thread)

Postby arahobob » Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:48 pm

This nice Random Thoughts Thread has become a Tonewood Thread!
:hijack:

Might I suggest moving it elsewhere so the mods will have an easier time shutting it down!
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Re: Kiesel Random Thoughts (not worth their own thread)

Postby UnexplodedCow » Fri Jun 09, 2017 4:09 pm

spudmunkey wrote:The issue I have with most "proof!" videos is that they don't re-use the same electronics. Not just "same brand and model" but moving the exact same units back and forth. We've all heard two versions of the exact same model sound slightly different, right? There's got to be some tolerances in pickup and electronics components, which could have an effect, no? The earlier video posted even went so far as to use the exact same strings and bridge!

On the one with the two strats, who's to say that maybe one of them didn't have shims in the neck pocket, or a nut that was cut differently, or something that would come from manufacturing tolerances?


Those tolerances are seriously +- 20% on pots. So a 500k pot could be anywhere from 400k to 600k. 400 is rather close to those 300kish specs in a Les Paul. 600k is in the opposite direction.

Even "tight," tolerance pots are rated at 10% tolerance. Hand-picking is the only way to go beyond that.

Audio taper pots are also not really logarithmic, but two tapers to sort-of cop how a real audio pot would perform. More expensive, actual log pots exist, but they're not usually put in at the factory. I will say that the pots that Kiesel/Carvin uses are quite good in terms of tolerance, usually in the 5-10% range of their rated value. I know some people hate 'em, but the things are solid.

All that aside, we also run into tone caps...that are typically in the 10-20% range (I'm not going into the whole dielectric argument, as I don't think it matters outside of the known piezo-electric effect on ceramic caps). So, some guitars may have a "larger," capacitor than usual, and be combined with a low side of the tolerance tone pot. What does that equal? A muddier sounding pickup, like the tone is rolled off some.

This does not take into account the actual winds of the pickup, and how the tolerance-stacking of the actual copper wire comes into play. There are micro-variations in tension between each wind, and the winds vibrate against each other (hence potting a pickup stopping that). But the copper wire can vary a bit. Let's not forget how much a wire can stretch during the winding process, or if it gets micro-shorts between winds (this can happen on the ends, and basically where I've seen stray winds and failures, particularly in SD pickups, though that's my own experience). All these things will change the exact inductance, resistance, and capacitance of the pickup itself. Put that into a jack that may have stray capacitance itself, or a cable that has micro-breaks (making for more possible stray capacitance/resistance), and the whole tone of a pickup can change drastically.

Nut quality, material, headstock type, string angle, bridge, and basically anything the strings mount to, or have high-pressure contact with, are major changers of sound, due to sympathetic vibrations. Ever played a Jazzmaster or Jaguar? They're known for "ghost notes," due to the low pressure bridge design, and excessive string length between the bridge and vibrato tailpiece. Inline headstocks will do something similar, and many people like to wrap the strings at the headstock to quell those vibrations when playing very high gain, technical phrases. Heck, we even know the vibrato springs vibrate, and can cause a sympathetic vibration in the strings that the pickups sense.

When I think on all this, I say to myself.... "Self, wood does not matter." I tend to agree with myself. Yes, this seems to have become a wood debate, but at least has its own decency to not delve into which wood is better, but rather if it matters at all. This is the first tone-wood ontological debate I've seen on here. Go us.
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Re: Kiesel Random Thoughts (not worth their own thread)

Postby gumbynotpokey » Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:42 am

BBS signature model? :stir:
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Re: Kiesel Random Thoughts (not worth their own thread)

Postby spudmunkey » Sat Jun 10, 2017 11:14 am

gumbynotpokey wrote:BBS signature model? :stir:


I feel like it's time for another raffle...but at the same time, I'm in no place to help with it and I feel like the ranks here have shrunk to the point where it might be tough to raise enough for a free guitar again (or at least a sizeable chunk). :(


For those who might be new around here, we spec'd out a guitar through a (long) series of polls. In the end, we had raised enough money to buy the guitar we "built" to be given away as a prize, and all extra funds and a framed card went directly to Jason Becker.

Here was the 32nd poll (I did say it was a long series, didn't I?):
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=42541

Here was the thread announcing the winner:
viewtopic.php?p=528920

I couldn't find the winner's NGD, but I did find this hilarious post in the fretboard wood poll about a month before he was found to be the winner:
emux2 wrote:BEM for me since I no longer have a guitar with that option. Deep down we all know that after a liftime of not winning much of anything, this will be my big win. Thanks to you all for helping design my guitar!!

:lol:

And here it is in the wild:
emux2 wrote:Image
Last edited by spudmunkey on Sat Jun 10, 2017 12:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Kiesel Random Thoughts (not worth their own thread)

Postby gumbynotpokey » Sat Jun 10, 2017 11:59 am

spudmunkey wrote:
gumbynotpokey wrote:BBS signature model? :stir:


I feel like it's time for another raffle...but at the same time, I'm in no place to help with it and I feel like the ranks here have shrunk to the point where it might be tough to raise enough for a free guitar again (or at least a sizeable chunk). :(


tru dat
Wife: C350, Claro top SH550, Vintage 16
Oldest: DC400M greenburst, C980TMW
Youngest: C750, GK1, CT624M Deep Black Cherry on flame, V3MC Celestion,
SH550 white/white, black binding, gold hardware
Me: LB70P jet black, LB70PF Claro BEM HAN, MB 10


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