Volume and Tone controls: Am I going crazy? HSH issue?

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mbardu
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Volume and Tone controls: Am I going crazy? HSH issue?

Postby mbardu » Tue Dec 03, 2013 1:08 am

So as it turns out, I was playing the new c66 tonight.
New c66 pictures

Still trying to figure out if I can live with the push-pull controls that were setup 'inverted' by mistake (coil split/phase switch on volume/tone instead of the opposite) or would send it back to have it fixed.

...and I noticed something odd :?:

Compared to my other Carvins, the Volume and Tone controls simply don't work as well.
Dialing the volume down a tiny bit will almost immediately roll-off most of the high-end; and a tiny bit more will essentially reduce the volume to about 40% (at this stage we are at about 8.5/10 on the volume control). The rest of the range is too low to be useable.
As for the tone, it's 'working' between 0/10 and 2/10, but above that, there is little to no change in tone (essentially the same as the 10/10).

I pulled out my trusty CT and DC to check that my ears were alright, and indeed both volume and tone controls are working very well. Nice smooth progression, almost linear, no rolloff of a specific frequency - really not comparable.

And now I'm wondering where this could come from :?:
Could the fact that the push-pulls are wired backwards be the culprit?

Or could the HSH configuration be the culprit (C22-AP11-FG)?
I pulled out the DC747 as well to test the H-S-H hypothesis, and it is not very precise either.

Have other people experienced different control sensitivities with H-S-H :?:
Positions 2 and 4 are sweet sound-wise, but that issue would make me regret my decision a bit.

Should I have the guitar looked at/checked?

Would different caps help?
I'm not the biggest expert in wiring/electronics to be honest.. :?

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re: Volume and Tone controls: Am I going crazy? HSH issue?

Postby treg » Tue Dec 03, 2013 4:24 am

Usually the volume pot is Linear taper and the tone pot is Audio taper. Check to see if the push/pull pots are Audio taper only. Also check to see if there is a treble bleed capacitor on the volume pot. Post a pic to get better suggestions?

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Re: re: Volume and Tone controls: Am I going crazy? HSH issu

Postby OotMagroot » Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:21 am

treg wrote:Usually the volume pot is Linear taper and the tone pot is Audio taper. Check to see if the push/pull pots are Audio taper only. Also check to see if there is a treble bleed capacitor on the volume pot. Post a pic to get better suggestions?


Yep, that's the first thing that sprang to mind. The push/pull knobs might be audio taper only and it might be screwing with what you are used to hearing in your other guitars.

This is one of the reasons I prefer to have my coil cuts (and similar sundries) on separate switches rather than on push/pull pots.

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Re: re: Volume and Tone controls: Am I going crazy? HSH issu

Postby mbardu » Tue Dec 03, 2013 7:50 am

treg wrote:Usually the volume pot is Linear taper and the tone pot is Audio taper. Check to see if the push/pull pots are Audio taper only. Also check to see if there is a treble bleed capacitor on the volume pot. Post a pic to get better suggestions?


Thank you for the answer.

A treble bleed?

Would they put it there? It's a brand new guitar?

I can post some pics tonight when I'm back from work.

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Re: re: Volume and Tone controls: Am I going crazy? HSH issu

Postby mbardu » Tue Dec 03, 2013 7:53 am

OotMagroot wrote:
treg wrote:Usually the volume pot is Linear taper and the tone pot is Audio taper. Check to see if the push/pull pots are Audio taper only. Also check to see if there is a treble bleed capacitor on the volume pot. Post a pic to get better suggestions?


Yep, that's the first thing that sprang to mind. The push/pull knobs might be audio taper only and it might be screwing with what you are used to hearing in your other guitars.

This is one of the reasons I prefer to have my coil cuts (and similar sundries) on separate switches rather than on push/pull pots.


That's interesting.
If wired properly, doesn't the switch action on a push-pull act exactly like a separate switch?

I have to be honest....I wanted to keep the controls to a minimum for cosmetic reasons on that guitar...otherwise I would have got the active electronics and piezo.

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re: Volume and Tone controls: Am I going crazy? HSH issue?

Postby bdadad » Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:00 am

My recent DC135 behaves in a similar fashion. The tone control does almost nothing until you get to the bottom 3rd. My volume control front loads most of the reduction to the top 3rd. I don't have a ton of high end bleed off from the volume though, it's more like taking some of the presence off than a reduction of treble if that makes any sense. My DC135 has separate switches for the coil-taps.

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Re: re: Volume and Tone controls: Am I going crazy? HSH issu

Postby mbardu » Tue Dec 03, 2013 11:24 am

bdadad wrote:My recent DC135 behaves in a similar fashion. The tone control does almost nothing until you get to the bottom 3rd. My volume control front loads most of the reduction to the top 3rd. I don't have a ton of high end bleed off from the volume though, it's more like taking some of the presence off than a reduction of treble if that makes any sense. My DC135 has separate switches for the coil-taps.


Ooh that sounds very similar to what I'm experiencing.
The amount off highs / treble loss may vary depending on our amps, but the rest of your description sound very familiar.

Is your guitar hss or hsh?

Have you found a way to work around that?

The sound at 10/10 on both controls is quite good, but I do like the variety and flexibility of working controls too.

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Re: re: Volume and Tone controls: Am I going crazy? HSH issu

Postby bdadad » Tue Dec 03, 2013 1:26 pm

mbardu wrote:
bdadad wrote:My recent DC135 behaves in a similar fashion. The tone control does almost nothing until you get to the bottom 3rd. My volume control front loads most of the reduction to the top 3rd. I don't have a ton of high end bleed off from the volume though, it's more like taking some of the presence off than a reduction of treble if that makes any sense. My DC135 has separate switches for the coil-taps.


Ooh that sounds very similar to what I'm experiencing.
The amount off highs / treble loss may vary depending on our amps, but the rest of your description sound very familiar.

Is your guitar hss or hsh?

Have you found a way to work around that?

The sound at 10/10 on both controls is quite good, but I do like the variety and flexibility of working controls too.


My DC135 is HHH (3 tbh60s). These volume/tone controls seem to be logarithmic.

I find the volume control to be very usable and after taking a quick spin with the guitar, isn't as steep a curve as I initially described. On the other hand, the tone control may be more pronounced than I initially described, with most of the action taking place in the last 15%.

Truth be told, I don't have 2 guitars that have similar behaving volume/tone controls to each other. Each is unique and I just write it off as the quirk of the guitar. With that said, I'd really like to have a smoother taper on the tone control.

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Re: re: Volume and Tone controls: Am I going crazy? HSH issu

Postby treg » Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:16 pm

mbardu wrote:
treg wrote:Usually the volume pot is Linear taper and the tone pot is Audio taper. Check to see if the push/pull pots are Audio taper only. Also check to see if there is a treble bleed capacitor on the volume pot. Post a pic to get better suggestions?


Thank you for the answer.

A treble bleed?

Would they put it there? It's a brand new guitar?

I can post some pics tonight when I'm back from work.


As far as I know, all Carvin guitars get a treble bleed capacitor on the volume pot. It's easy to spot since it's a capacitor on two terminals of the volume pot.

The push/pull pot would act like a mini switch in the switching aspect, but the taper of the pot is independent of the switching. If Carvin only stocks Audio taper push/pull pots, the volume will not behave as a regular non-push/pull Linear taper volume pot.

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re: Volume and Tone controls: Am I going crazy? HSH issue?

Postby mbardu » Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:50 am

Here's the picture:

Image

I can't tell for the life of me if something is wrong or not :lol:

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Re: re: Volume and Tone controls: Am I going crazy? HSH issu

Postby bdadad » Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:09 am

mbardu wrote:Here's the picture:

Image

I can't tell for the life of me if something is wrong or not :lol:


Cover that thing up… This is a family site! :laughhard:

Here's mine for comparison. I don't think I have an issue with my volume control, but my tone control seems to have the exact same issue you are having.


Image

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re: Volume and Tone controls: Am I going crazy? HSH issue?

Postby treg » Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:54 am

The red is the treble bleed cap and the blue is the tone cap. Since you seem to be experiencing the opposite of the treble bleed effect, check to see if the cap is touching the ground terminal or anything other than the middle and left terminals. It's possible it's touching ground and you're getting a treble loss like a tone pot.

Also, many folks using an Audio taper volume pot will use a treble bleed cap and a small resistor (maybe 150k) wired parallel. It would look like your current treble bleed cap but just add a resistor next to it (or wrap the wire parts around each other). This would change the volume pot's taper and give a more gradual effect similar to a Linear taper pot. You could also change the tone cap to a larger value, like .033 or .044, which will give a warmer response. The current .022 might be too bright with the 25.5" bolt-on setup since your other guitars are a neck-thru and a set neck. Hope this has been helpful in some way.

Image

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Re: re: Volume and Tone controls: Am I going crazy? HSH issu

Postby ElfDude » Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:41 am

OotMagroot wrote:
treg wrote:Usually the volume pot is Linear taper and the tone pot is Audio taper. Check to see if the push/pull pots are Audio taper only. Also check to see if there is a treble bleed capacitor on the volume pot. Post a pic to get better suggestions?


Yep, that's the first thing that sprang to mind. The push/pull knobs might be audio taper only and it might be screwing with what you are used to hearing in your other guitars.

This is one of the reasons I prefer to have my coil cuts (and similar sundries) on separate switches rather than on push/pull pots.


When I replaced the volume pot in my CT4M with a push/pull so that I could split my pickups individually I ran into this same thing. The pot I used had once been a Carvin tone control pot. It behaves very differently than my other volume knobs. But I don't really care since I always leave those knobs dimed and adjust volume with my volume pedal.
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re: Volume and Tone controls: Am I going crazy? HSH issue?

Postby vwelch01 » Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:49 pm

Mbardu,
If it does not seem right or sound right I suggest two things. First call Albert. Take some pics you can email him so he can see and discuss with you on the phone. Then if things are not right simply send it back to Carvin. Here is the bottom line. Carvin wants you to be completely happy with your guitar as you should be. This is your custom instrument and you need to know why it responds the way it does. This guitar is brand new and responding different. Why? Carvin will know and will fix it. Go to the source my friend and let us know what you find out. V
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Re: re: Volume and Tone controls: Am I going crazy? HSH issu

Postby mbardu » Thu Dec 05, 2013 10:00 pm

treg wrote:The red is the treble bleed cap and the blue is the tone cap. Since you seem to be experiencing the opposite of the treble bleed effect, check to see if the cap is touching the ground terminal or anything other than the middle and left terminals. It's possible it's touching ground and you're getting a treble loss like a tone pot.

Also, many folks using an Audio taper volume pot will use a treble bleed cap and a small resistor (maybe 150k) wired parallel. It would look like your current treble bleed cap but just add a resistor next to it (or wrap the wire parts around each other). This would change the volume pot's taper and give a more gradual effect similar to a Linear taper pot. You could also change the tone cap to a larger value, like .033 or .044, which will give a warmer response. The current .022 might be too bright with the 25.5" bolt-on setup since your other guitars are a neck-thru and a set neck. Hope this has been helpful in some way.

Image


Thank you for taking a look.
After further check, I don't think the capacitor is touching the ground though.

Since the push pull installed backwards is bothering me, I may just send it back to check both things.
I'm a bit wary of starting to tweak a brand new guitar.


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