Vintage M22's found for 1979 DC160 !! Yea !!

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Koaboy
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Vintage M22's found for 1979 DC160 !! Yea !!

Postby Koaboy » Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:45 pm

Finally found some proper M22's for my DC160 only took 8 months searching, but I need cream bezels (anyone want to sell/trade ? : ) well I will find those soon even if I have to buy more pups... very close to having all of the proper vintage parts as I bought an entire wire harness from a part out with proper knobs, tips and the 2 switches that were replaced !!
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Ultra V Spalt 2014
CS624 gold top 2013
DC200 Koa 2004
Cobalt 980T 2004
DC125 1991
V220T 1985
SH225 White 1986
LB40 Koa 1983
DC160 1979
CM96 1976
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Doctor Turn
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Re: Vintage M22's found for 1979 DC160 !! Yea !!

Postby Doctor Turn » Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:15 pm

Congrats. SO is it M22N/M22T, or M22N/M22SD.

My guess is it's just two "M22's" each one wound for position. Should be an "N" and a "T" on the undersides.
Carvin Weaponry:
1985 DC150K (koa) Stereo, M22N/M22SD w/black hardware.
1985 100 Watt X Amp 2 x 12 combo (XV212) upgraded w/ 2 Vintage 30's
...and other gear.

https://soundcloud.com/the_heavy_clouds

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Koaboy
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Re: Vintage M22's found for 1979 DC160 !! Yea !!

Postby Koaboy » Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:28 am

Doctor Turn wrote:Congrats. SO is it M22N/M22T, or M22N/M22SD.

My guess is it's just two "M22's" each one wound for position. Should be an "N" and a "T" on the undersides.




Hey Dr Turn, no, no marking under either, I believe the copper wrapped are all the same for bridge/neck (earliest, taller from 1978-1982) M22's with the upper copper wrap can be seen with bright photos like in the 1978 catalog pic of a guitar (is in the museum) and look really cool with gold hardware/natural finish, I've seen some good pics on ebay showing them in late 70's guitars.

my best guess (from the order forms in my collection of catalogs)

copper M22's 1978-1982

black wrap shorter M22's 1983-1987 (also no diff between B/N)
M22SD's 1984-?? (only for bridge pos)

M22n - 1987-??
M22t - 1987-??


feel free to correct/improve : )
Ultra V Spalt 2014
CS624 gold top 2013
DC200 Koa 2004
Cobalt 980T 2004
DC125 1991
V220T 1985
SH225 White 1986
LB40 Koa 1983
DC160 1979
CM96 1976
Lots of Amps & Accs

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Doctor Turn
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Re: Vintage M22's found for 1979 DC160 !! Yea !!

Postby Doctor Turn » Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:18 pm

Yeah, even in 85 when I had my 150K built, the guitar was technically, rather than M22/M22, (with any winding delineation marked on the bottom plates) M22/M22SD bridge option. I've never taken out my neck pickup, and am terrified of doing anything to it for fear of having something go wrong (like with two 22SD's already) with this superb vintage pup (although I do have another vintage 22N and 22SD from the mid eighties as backup), so I'm not sure what's written under it.

Here's a good example of the mid80's winder tagging them for the assembly crew:
Image

The neck pickup was always just "a M22." As was the bridge unless you ordered an M22SD. I don't think the public appellation of T or N really became used on any order forms until the 90's when the V became available for the neck, and there were now winding choices between standard-original M22 neck, standard original M22 bridge... and 22SD of course... and then by the early 90's the V, which kind of tamped down the girth and output of the standard M22 neck wind--all those "sledgehammer mids" touted in all the ads that made it such a great drop in replacement for their Shaws and tarbacks (and 400 series)-- and really just made it a little more like a straight PAF copy but w 22 poles.

I think the V is a very nice sounding pickup, and I generally like its articulation versus your standard PAF copy, but the way that the original M22 neck pup packs such a wicked punch (my 33 year old neck pickup is incredibly girthy and fat and LOUD, I sometimes think it's louder than the M22SD (!, not kidding), and it splits the best of any humbucker I've ever played, and that's saying something because the pickups that Johan Lundgren wound for that special limited series of handmade-in Europe Swedes are really awesome Alnico II humbuckers. It sounds so much like a Telecaster it's uncanny) and yet remains clear and articulate, even in a live scenario, is just superb. That was pretty much the mandate of the M22's when they were new: Gibson humbuckers without all the mud, and yet with great power and punch. And the way my guitar goes out of phase in humbucker mode, I love the way it sounds even more than the actual original Peter Green burst.

I still have to imagine that the two you have must have been wound for position.. I'm guessing the easy way to identify the position is one should be adjusted higher in the bezel to get closer to the strings, and that would likely be your bridge.

That said, I don't want to assume they always wound them to position, even with a brand new guitar from the factory. Even on some of their old vintage ads, it tells you to, when ordering, specify what position of the axe you're ordering for so they can give you the right wind:
Image

But this is a mid-80's ad, and it's possible that they only started optimizing the winds-to-position as the eighties got going. Maybe some of the early one's were just a universal wind... which is fine and would mimic some of the greatest pups on the planet. It's more than likely the vintage M22N wind, because this wind is also recommended on Carvin's old comparative pup chart as a good bridge pickup (and the specs illustrate why).

And of course, uniformity between positions is just like the legendary original 57-61 PAF's, also like the vintage late-60's-1970's Hagstrom humbuckers which may be my favorite humbuckers on the planet (which usually were 8.2k in both positions and wound identically in all positions for all their bucker driven guitars, you could take a bridge from a HIIN and stick it in the neck of a Viking, take the neck from a Swede and put it in the bridge of a Jimmy D'Aquisto hollowbody jazzbo, they're all identical, only one w slight variation was the Super Swede which was a 4 wire bucker because of the coil splits against the long scale).

[/head-clutter-release]
Carvin Weaponry:
1985 DC150K (koa) Stereo, M22N/M22SD w/black hardware.
1985 100 Watt X Amp 2 x 12 combo (XV212) upgraded w/ 2 Vintage 30's
...and other gear.

https://soundcloud.com/the_heavy_clouds

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Koaboy
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Re: Vintage M22's found for 1979 DC160 !! Yea !!

Postby Koaboy » Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:05 pm

Interesting info as usual Dr Turn, as you mentioned " tagged for the assy crew" is right, The hand written indicators were just for proper assy as far as N & T positions - the most technical way to tell is to ohm the windings out, if they match from pickup to pickup they are the same, SD's would obviously be diff and higher in resistance -

I do know that the M22v was not offered until 1996 as well as the Holdsworth pup's - so my info was just for the vintage era for us vintage collectors... : )

check the below pic for the diff in thickness between the first M22 and a M22V - looks like just a larger magnet ...


Just measured my antique M22's , both measure about 7k ohms similar to the newer M22V, so the newer M22's were hotter besides the magnet diff...

Well the following is from the museum (missing original M22's rating info) -


PICKUP TYPE CONDUCTORS
DC RESISTANCE (ohms)
MAGNET
AP11 Single Coil 2+SHIELD
4.3K
CERAMIC
S60T/N Single Coil Rail 2+SHIELD
7.6K
ALNICO 5
TBH60 Dual Coil Humbucker 4+SHIELD
7.9K
CERAMIC
C22N Dual Coil Humbucker 2+tap+shield
7.4K
ALNICO 5
C22B Dual Coil Humbucker 2+tap+shield
14.1K
ALNICO 5
C22T Dual Coil Humbucker 2+tap+shield
8.6K
ALNICO 5
H22N Dual Coil Humbucker 2+tap+shield
7.3K
ALNICO 5
H22T Dual Coil Humbucker 2+tap+shield
8.6K
ALNICO 5
M22N Dual Coil Humbucker 2+tap+shield
8.4K
ALNICO 5
M22V Dual Coil Humbucker 2+tap+shield
7.3K
ALNICO 5
M22T Dual Coil Humbucker 2+tap+shield
13.3K
ALNICO 5
M22SD Dual Coil Humbucker 2+tap+shield
13.9K
ALNICO 5
C26-T 7-string Dual Coil Humbucker 2+tap+shield
16.0K
CERAMIC
C26-N 7-string Dual Coil Humbucker 2+tap+shield
10.1K
CERAMIC
C13 7-string Single Coil 2+SHIELD
7.8K
CERAMIC
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Ultra V Spalt 2014
CS624 gold top 2013
DC200 Koa 2004
Cobalt 980T 2004
DC125 1991
V220T 1985
SH225 White 1986
LB40 Koa 1983
DC160 1979
CM96 1976
Lots of Amps & Accs

User avatar
Doctor Turn
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Re: Vintage M22's found for 1979 DC160 !! Yea !!

Postby Doctor Turn » Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:09 pm

Koaboy wrote:
I do know that the M22v was not offered until 1996 as well as the Holdsworth pup's - so my info was just for the vintage era for us vintage collectors... : )


That's not true, it was introduced in the early 90's, first appears in the 92 catalog:

http://www.carvinmuseum.com/decade/92-guitars.html

From the 92 catalog:

Image

I think the mag on a vintage M22 measuring a flat 7 ohms has probably experienced a little bit of degaussing. Number one culprit is the guitar leaning up against an amp, with those huge ceramic mags in the speakers pulling in the opposing direction. Mid sevens was standard for an original spec PAF, and going below that is counter-intuitive to the whole mission of the M22.

I could be wrong, and I know the company lit says that the recipe was noodled with several times before arriving at the final recipe for all 4 of them.. but that still sounds a little low. Again, could be wrong. But the whole point of the V was to mellow out the neck pup to ratchet it back into PAF territory.
Carvin Weaponry:
1985 DC150K (koa) Stereo, M22N/M22SD w/black hardware.
1985 100 Watt X Amp 2 x 12 combo (XV212) upgraded w/ 2 Vintage 30's
...and other gear.

https://soundcloud.com/the_heavy_clouds

User avatar
Koaboy
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Posts: 145
Joined: May 2012
Location: Dayton, OH

Re: Vintage M22's found for 1979 DC160 !! Yea !!

Postby Koaboy » Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:59 pm

gottcha thanks for the correction, I got my info from the museum (section of how to tell diff guitar vintages) could have read it wrong.

as far as the winding resistance of the original m22's I have, I'll just be happy if they work ok, the 160 I bought was purely for collecting so we'll see how she sounds (prob won't put together until I get some cream bezels...)

Let me know when you are selling me your DC150k Dr Turn :D
Ultra V Spalt 2014
CS624 gold top 2013
DC200 Koa 2004
Cobalt 980T 2004
DC125 1991
V220T 1985
SH225 White 1986
LB40 Koa 1983
DC160 1979
CM96 1976
Lots of Amps & Accs


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