22 fret or 24 fret...

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Tony PD
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22 fret or 24 fret...

Postby Tony PD » Sun Jan 13, 2019 5:53 pm

...Which do you prefer and why.

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Doctor Turn
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Re: 22 fret or 24 fret...

Postby Doctor Turn » Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:22 pm

Used to prefer 24, because I thought it made me a more exploratory guitar player... And my number one, my old dc150Koa is like a 24 fret DC Les Paul... But truth be told, the 22 fret double humbucker guitars I own (many) sound slightly jazzier and bubblier in the neck pickup position, because the pickup sits under the second octave.. whereas the pup is pushed forward away from those harmonics on a two octave neck.

And truth be told, I rarely solo above the 19th fret anyhow...

I still love my DC because of the superiority of the neck pickup that's in it (34 year old m22N) compensated for the distance off the octave. And everything else about it is pure whoopass. But I'm not buying any more 24 fretters.

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Re: 22 fret or 24 fret...

Postby Koshchei » Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:23 pm

24; more range. OP: Which do you prefer and why?

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Re: 22 fret or 24 fret...

Postby ghostryder » Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:56 pm

If it's about the music then 24 frets makes sense. Your getting the entire octave. Lets not forget the period when the first guitars were on the scene. It was big bands. Everything was written on the piano...so 21 frets made sense as a c#, F# etc etc were piano notes ....then when rock n' roll came about everything started being written on the guitar. now 22 frets make sense...C, D, E....guitar notes.
Then you started to see rock bands that had members that had classical / hard core music backgrounds. Emerson, Lake and Palmer, Yes, etc etc expanding, inovating and exploring.....so why settle for only part of that octive? We want the whole thing.

Now there is an argument about PU placement and how tone changes when you move that neck PU back 3/4 of an inch. To my ears it just adds a bit of clarity to what is a meaty sound. If it really is about tone everyone knows when playing with amp eqs it's a heck of a lot easier to eliminate rather than add, so me the whole thing is a none issue. A simple knob adjustment and get you back there, but your struggle trying to get that 24 fret tone on the 22 fret guitar.

So my next guitar, ordered Dec 4th and hopefully arriving early Feb. is a 24 fret GH3....a big departure from the strats I've always played and mainly yes, I want that full octive.

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Re: 22 fret or 24 fret...

Postby Doctor Turn » Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:40 pm

Negative. You simply cannot add true octave harmonics by playing with amp potentiometers any more than you can make it sound like you're picking by the bridge versus over the end of the neck. It's almost a legit different pickup position... Which themselves can only be vaguely approached with tone controls.. the biggest faux pas of Holdsworth and his minions is the claim that a bridge pickup can do the neck sound by roll-off's.

You can dampen the bite, but you can't make the fat bubbles appear, not in dreams or elsewhere. Same here viz the differences of 22/24, to a more subtle degree.
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Re: 22 fret or 24 fret...

Postby Doctor Doug » Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:09 pm

I like 22 fretters for the neck sound. Also, I've never once played my guitars and felt the need for two more frets.
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Re: 22 fret or 24 fret...

Postby ghostryder » Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:12 pm

Doctor Turn wrote:Negative. You simply cannot add true octave harmonics by playing with amp potentiometers any more than you can make it sound like you're picking by the bridge versus over the end of the neck. It's almost a legit different pickup position... Which themselves can only be vaguely approached with tone controls.. the biggest faux pas of Holdsworth and his minions is the claim that a bridge pickup can do the neck sound by roll-off's.

You can dampen the bite, but you can't make the fat bubbles appear, not in dreams or elsewhere. Same here viz the differences of 22/24, to a more subtle degree.


I'm not claiming you can get a bridge PU to sound like a neck PU, that's a whole other ballpark. But that 3/4 of an inch? The best demo I saw was from the tone King on the subject where he used 2 PRS's...one a 22fret and the other 24 fret and both had the same PUs. Now he goes into it totally from a tone perspective and somewhat into scale (both guitars have the same scale yet the 12th fret sits the same on both for example)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quIS5iM3qNM&t=23s

To my ears the tone doesn't change enough to say it's a middle PU, it just seems to add a bit of mid and top end to it. The 22 fret tone deep and dark. In that situation, especially with pedals in the mix I'd have absolutely no trouble at all getting that 22 fret tone.

Could I get the 22 fret to sound like the 24 fret? that would be some work but perhaps .... give me a Kepler i could probably get the bridge PU there lol

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Re: 22 fret or 24 fret...

Postby HarlowTheFish » Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:51 pm

I prefer 24 frets with a neck humbucker, and am happy with either with a neck single coil. I find bringing the neck pickup that little bit closer to the bridge helps tame the low end of a neck humbucker, and seems to mess with the midrange in a way that I like. A little more focused, more cutting. With a single coil I'm happy with the 21/22 fret "vintage correct" neck sound with a spongier pickup, but am also a big fan of a more modern-voiced pickup with 24 frets. Different tools for different jobs. As far as P90s go, my only guitar with one is an LPJ copy, so no neck pickup.

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Re: 22 fret or 24 fret...

Postby ghostryder » Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:10 pm

There's another dynamic going on as well we haven't touched on. But over what influences the difference in the sound moreso than anything is where the pickup is located in relationship to string movement.

Take an acoustic guitar and where you strum or pick the strings in relationship to the bridge will change the tone. String/pick near the bridge and it's going to have a more treble/high frequency sound and strum/pick near the neck it's going to have more bottom end/fuller/rounder sound. Nothing else has changed. The sound hole hasn't moved. The bridge nor nut. just where your plucking.

on a 22 fret the strings are moving/vibrating more above that pickup and they move/vibrate less on a 24 fret. But by moving you strum/pick position closer to the neck you can compensate a bit...not totally like an acoustic, but to some degree simply by moving the position closer to the neck.

I like to look at it in these terms rather than PU position because the later assumes all 22 fret guitars have the neck PU up against the neck...that's just not true. But where the strings are vibrating more...well that is.

So if you think of the PU as the sound hole of an acoustic your be closer to what's truely happening. Move the sound hole of an acoustic 3/4 inch towards the bridge and you'd get the same effect, but again change the position of your strumming you offset the effect.

The main problem with that of course, and this includes myself, is we are lazy and we tend to let our strumming hand sit in one position and then we go on in 100 different threads about tone control positioning in relationship to that and so forth-

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Re: 22 fret or 24 fret...

Postby Koshchei » Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:32 am

Doctor Turn wrote:Negative. You simply cannot add true octave harmonics by playing with amp potentiometers any more than you can make it sound like you're picking by the bridge versus over the end of the neck. It's almost a legit different pickup position... Which themselves can only be vaguely approached with tone controls.. the biggest faux pas of Holdsworth and his minions is the claim that a bridge pickup can do the neck sound by roll-off's.

You can dampen the bite, but you can't make the fat bubbles appear, not in dreams or elsewhere. Same here viz the differences of 22/24, to a more subtle degree.


Holdsworth and his minions? You mean a choir of angels because he's dead, right? If so, I'm not messing with the angels -- they have flaming swords and billions of years of professional gigging under their musical belts. So, do what all smart angels do: Choose Holdsworth and 24 frets.

;)

Also: fat bubbles sounds painful.

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Re: 22 fret or 24 fret...

Postby ghostryder » Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:09 am

lol!

Let's not forget The Keystone Exchanger. This know your gear review of it is great because he's holding a Gibson SG and OH MY GOD look at the position of that neck pickup!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeO3JhiG458

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Re: 22 fret or 24 fret...

Postby wickid » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:34 am


I'm with both "Doctors" … in their 1st replies. 22 fretter preferred for me - due to the neck p/up (especially in a range around the 12th fret +/- a few frets). I also hear a slightly more pronounced in-between tone when combining p/ups.
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Re: 22 fret or 24 fret...

Postby Doctor Turn » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:15 am

Koshchei wrote:
Doctor Turn wrote:Negative. You simply cannot add true octave harmonics by playing with amp potentiometers any more than you can make it sound like you're picking by the bridge versus over the end of the neck. It's almost a legit different pickup position... Which themselves can only be vaguely approached with tone controls.. the biggest faux pas of Holdsworth and his minions is the claim that a bridge pickup can do the neck sound by roll-off's.

You can dampen the bite, but you can't make the fat bubbles appear, not in dreams or elsewhere. Same here viz the differences of 22/24, to a more subtle degree.


Holdsworth and his minions? You mean a choir of angels because he's dead, right? If so, I'm not messing with the angels -- they have flaming swords and billions of years of professional gigging under their musical belts. So, do what all smart angels do: Choose Holdsworth and 24 frets.

;)

Also: fat bubbles sounds painful.


Oh Tetragrammaton, let not mine enemies compass me roundabout in the wilderness; strengthen me with fat bubbles that the sadducees and the pharisees doth not understand! Give mine enemies ears to hear o lord! Yea! for there is tone in discernment and understanding--there be wisdom in the apprehension of pup placement! Let not the beer in Canada trick the mind of my creeping opponents!

Verily I say unto thee: Archangel Holdsworth proclaimed a blasphemy on the bridge--who shall pronounce it? Let they with ears to hear, say, "No Alan! Hold-- too far!"

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Re: 22 fret or 24 fret...

Postby ElfDude » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:56 am

I own both and enjoy both. But which I choose often depends on what neck pickup sound I'm after. Some pickups I like better on 24-fretters and some on 22.

My last new build was an S-S-S Aries, and I went with 22 frets on that one so I could get a more correct neck pickup sound on it. I guess by "correct" I mean Strat-like. *shrugs*
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Re: 22 fret or 24 fret...

Postby Koshchei » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:37 pm

Doctor Turn wrote:
Koshchei wrote:
Doctor Turn wrote:Negative. You simply cannot add true octave harmonics by playing with amp potentiometers any more than you can make it sound like you're picking by the bridge versus over the end of the neck. It's almost a legit different pickup position... Which themselves can only be vaguely approached with tone controls.. the biggest faux pas of Holdsworth and his minions is the claim that a bridge pickup can do the neck sound by roll-off's.

You can dampen the bite, but you can't make the fat bubbles appear, not in dreams or elsewhere. Same here viz the differences of 22/24, to a more subtle degree.


Holdsworth and his minions? You mean a choir of angels because he's dead, right? If so, I'm not messing with the angels -- they have flaming swords and billions of years of professional gigging under their musical belts. So, do what all smart angels do: Choose Holdsworth and 24 frets.

;)

Also: fat bubbles sounds painful.


Oh Tetragrammaton, let not mine enemies compass me roundabout in the wilderness; strengthen me with fat bubbles that the sadducees and the pharisees doth not understand! Give mine enemies ears to hear o lord! Yea! for there is tone in discernment and understanding--there be wisdom in the apprehension of pup placement! Let not the beer in Canada trick the mind of my creeping opponents!

Verily I say unto thee: Archangel Holdsworth proclaimed a blasphemy on the bridge--who shall pronounce it? Let they with ears to hear, say, "No Alan! Hold-- too far!"

(Sound of toilet flush)
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Thou hast won this round, miscreant!

I shall return with fat bubbles of mine owne, whence we shall go to the house of Rashamon Beth-babuel Basda, and play rapturous melody requiring those heavenly intervals, cherubic in their lofty height, that ascend on high to the 23rd and 24th steps of the Lord’s own fretboard, resplendant in ineffable tritone substitutions and draught ale.

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Re: 22 fret or 24 fret...

Postby UnexplodedCow » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:03 pm

Doctor Turn wrote:Negative. You simply cannot add true octave harmonics by playing with amp potentiometers any more than you can make it sound like you're picking by the bridge versus over the end of the neck. It's almost a legit different pickup position... Which themselves can only be vaguely approached with tone controls.. the biggest faux pas of Holdsworth and his minions is the claim that a bridge pickup can do the neck sound by roll-off's.

You can dampen the bite, but you can't make the fat bubbles appear, not in dreams or elsewhere. Same here viz the differences of 22/24, to a more subtle degree.


I think it can be done, but will not even guess as to *how* to tune a coil to properly do so (that's for future me to figure out). I know that the desired harmonic has to be recognized first, and then the frequency determined. After that, we then tune the pickup to accentuate that specific frequency range (can be with magnets, inductors, inventive EQing methods). We can even influence a pickup's sound by changing the magnetic structure, or field strength, and that's nothing new, so (again, in theory) making a bridge sound like a neck pickup can certainly be done. I can see using some switching, special EQing, and an active pickup, and it would likely work like a traditional two pickup design, but with only one. Benefit of weight savings, less wiring, less chance of noise.

In the traditional sense, however, I totally agree. While we can filter out the unwanted portions of a bridge pickup, to simulate a neck, it's not the same. Different section of the string, picking up different harmonic content, with a differently tuned coil than a typical neck pickup. Tomorrow's tech will likely have this one figured out, though.
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Re: 22 fret or 24 fret...

Postby HarlowTheFish » Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:32 pm

UnexplodedCow wrote:
I think it can be done, but will not even guess as to *how* to tune a coil to properly do so (that's for future me to figure out). I know that the desired harmonic has to be recognized first, and then the frequency determined. After that, we then tune the pickup to accentuate that specific frequency range (can be with magnets, inductors, inventive EQing methods). We can even influence a pickup's sound by changing the magnetic structure, or field strength, and that's nothing new, so (again, in theory) making a bridge sound like a neck pickup can certainly be done. I can see using some switching, special EQing, and an active pickup, and it would likely work like a traditional two pickup design, but with only one. Benefit of weight savings, less wiring, less chance of noise.

In the traditional sense, however, I totally agree. While we can filter out the unwanted portions of a bridge pickup, to simulate a neck, it's not the same. Different section of the string, picking up different harmonic content, with a differently tuned coil than a typical neck pickup. Tomorrow's tech will likely have this one figured out, though.

Satch has said that he was super hesitant to move to 24 frets, but with the Satch Track and the shortened end of the fretboard on the JS24s, he got basically a hot strat neck tone. Having played one of the MIJ ones briefly, I gotta say I agree. Like, yeah it's not quiiiite the same, but the minute you start playing anything you forget about it because the differences (in this particular guitar) are honestly minimal.

As far as getting a neck pickup tone with a non-neck pickup, Ibanez did the RG550 (the HX, not the classic one) with 36 frets and only bridge and middle pickups. They used some weird electronic mcguffin in the switching to emulate positions 4 and 5 (neck split and middle, neck series) and again, I thought it sounded like what I'd expect any other midrange RG with stock pickups to sound like in positions 4 and 5. That's not a high bar, but since it used the pickups in the guitar and some filtering magic, I hear that swapping them out makes it sound pretty legit.

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Re: 22 fret or 24 fret...

Postby PowerTube » Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:37 pm

I prefer 24 frets. To me, a 24-fret guitar just feels more natural somehow.

Regardless of how you feel about the late Ed Roman, this article makes sense:

http://www.edroman.com/techarticles/22vs24.htm
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Re: 22 fret or 24 fret...

Postby HarlowTheFish » Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:54 pm

PowerTube wrote:I prefer 24 frets. To me, a 24-fret guitar just feels more natural somehow.

Regardless of how you feel about the late Ed Roman, this article makes sense:

http://www.edroman.com/techarticles/22vs24.htm

Jeez, been a while since I've seen any Ed Roman around.

Anybody else think his site is basically the guitar version of Time Cube guy's? Like, he makes some decent points, but between being beaten over the head with his superiority and just trying to follow his tangents is migraine inducing (and dear god his web design is atrocious and it's from 2013 - no excuse).

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Re: 22 fret or 24 fret...

Postby UnexplodedCow » Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:31 pm

HarlowTheFish wrote:
PowerTube wrote:I prefer 24 frets. To me, a 24-fret guitar just feels more natural somehow.

Regardless of how you feel about the late Ed Roman, this article makes sense:

http://www.edroman.com/techarticles/22vs24.htm

Jeez, been a while since I've seen any Ed Roman around.

Anybody else think his site is basically the guitar version of Time Cube guy's? Like, he makes some decent points, but between being beaten over the head with his superiority and just trying to follow his tangents is migraine inducing (and dear god his web design is atrocious and it's from 2013 - no excuse).


He is dead, after all, and I'd think maybe the website design died with him, or his soul, whichever came first. Definitely a polarizing character by any means. I know of nobody, including myself, who has mixed feelings.
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